WEBVTT

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Alright, we're at the big conference in Bilbao and it's very nice to be here once again.

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And it's especially nice today, we're here joined by Mr. Bakaba, so thank you so much for joining us.

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Because we talked, I think it was two years ago, and it was remote, sadly.

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So now we get to meet you in person, thank you so much for being here.

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Are you enjoying the event so far?

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Yes, I am. Just arrived, but it's really nice.

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I've been seeing it through a little window and reports on Twitter last time we talked.

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So it's nice to be actually here in person.

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Back then we were talking about Deathloop mostly.

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The game had been out for a while, so we were looking back at the development, at the design.

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Game design mostly, of course.

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And you told me, you know, we wanted to do a game that can be hated by someone,

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some people can be loved by some other people, but will leave nobody indifferent.

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I know we can't talk about the elephant in the room, but is that your motto going forward?

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Is that something that you want to do with your games, to convey?

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I think if you forbid yourself, you know, if you forbid the potentiality for hate,

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I think it's too limiting.

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Then you try to satisfy everyone, and everyone is like, yeah, it's okay, I guess.

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But we still want to go for love.

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Like we still want to do, like that's what Arkane does.

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We want to surprise and delight all the time.

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So just convenience wouldn't work for this team.

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Like that's not what we do.

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And back then we also had, the pandemic was very recent still,

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so we talked a little bit about, you know, the sort of loop we lived in with the pandemic.

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And it was very convenient to have some games such as Deathloop,

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or we talked about Death Stranding, for example.

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But how do you feel about that now, about the surge of loop-based games,

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roguelike games, there's a lot of even AAA games now introducing

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sort of loop-based or roguelike-based mode.

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How do you feel about that in terms of the genre itself?

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Well, I would say that, in general, what those games do very well

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is make the players really enjoy the mechanic, you know.

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So when it's a pure roguelite, then you will learn a set of mechanics

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and use them again and again.

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And if it's well made, there is also a story that progresses along with it.

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But it's all about the challenge and succeeding, right?

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I think it's really interesting what we're seeing with AAA games,

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like, you know, God of War just released its expansion.

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It is that some people will have already finished God of War twice.

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New game, new game plus, maybe once more, you know.

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And they have a really good grasp of the mechanics,

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but a lot of players will have finished it just once for the story,

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and by the end of the game, they're like,

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oh, this feels really good, but then the game ends.

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And I think the opportunity to play through those kind of loops again and again

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and be surprised and seeing some different things, interesting things,

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that allows you to go deeper with the mechanics

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and to touch a little bit of the mastery, you know.

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Like, the promise for me is like, okay, I finished God of War once,

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but I've seen those crazy combo videos on the internet.

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So the promise is kind of, well, if you play this DLC,

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after a while, you will be that,

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and you will not be repeating the exact same thing over and over,

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because it changes, there is some randomness, some surprise to it.

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So yeah, I think it's interesting.

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Are loops something that you would like to explore further in the future?

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I don't know, like right on the top of my head, I think we...

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Well, I think the way I see games is I want to explore something each time,

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and I don't know, maybe, who knows,

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but it's not something that is in my mind,

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that's something that I would like to try again.

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Like, I'm not saying anything,

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but even imagine if one day I wanted to make a sequel for Deathloop.

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One day, who knows?

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Maybe it's not a loop game, who knows?

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You see, I like to...

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Death, not loop.

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Who knows?

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But the point being,

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I like to see each game as its special thing,

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even when you're doing a sequel.

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Even when we did the sequel to Dishonored, with Dishonored 2,

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there is a lot that you can find in common between those two games,

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but there were some very special things we wanted to explore,

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to develop with it,

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so it's not just, let's take the same things and put them here

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and make some money with it.

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It was really, we have a story to tell,

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we have some themes to explore,

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we want to create this new location

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and explore more of the world and the settings.

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Yeah, I think it's all about the intention.

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If tomorrow, Sébastien Mitton wakes up with a crazy idea

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that means that you have to live the same day over and over,

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why not?

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But otherwise...

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Two things, one about Deathloop still,

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and then one about Dishonored.

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First thing is, we've said,

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roguelikes, loops were trendy,

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but if one keyword is trendy this year, that's AI, right?

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And in Deathloop, we have 2bit,

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which sort of explains to you what's going on,

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and we've seen this with AI this year in the real world.

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So, you know, Deathloop was sort of foreseen some things

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and the loop we lived.

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What can you tell us about AI and about that concept

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and about that character

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and about this whole AI thing going forward in games?

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Well, if it was for 2bit,

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I think what's interesting with 2bit is...

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But well, for 2bit,

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I think one of the explorations that is interesting

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is the fact that it is actually not an AI,

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it's a cyborg,

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because it has a little piece of the brain of Igor in it.

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So what was interesting is,

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what's still human in this character,

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even though it communicates in a very unnatural way,

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it is not like anyone else on the island,

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he's very...

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In some way, he knows more than everyone,

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but at the same time,

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he cannot tell them,

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because there is not the recordings to do so.

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Like actually, one of the...

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There was an old video game,

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like an adventure game,

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that had a name that was very evocative,

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a cyberpunk game that's called

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I Have No Mouth But I Must Scream.

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And actually, I feel that 2bit kind of expresses that.

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It expresses the...

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Maybe there is something human there,

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but through the way the technology is designed,

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it cannot actually connect with others on this island.

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So the story of 2bit is a little bit like Colt's story,

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except that contrary to Colt,

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he doesn't have Juliana, who is the other person,

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because Colt remembers, right?

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He's one of the few people on the island

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that remembers the loop.

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So any interaction he would have with anyone on the island

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will be voided after one day.

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So he cannot build any relationship.

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And the only relationship that has been built

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is with his enemy, with Juliana.

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But 2bit is in a weird place.

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He's locked in a room, cannot move around.

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There is something very tragic in this character.

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But the whole thing about human beings

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putting something of themselves in machines,

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whether physical or metaphorically,

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and then that machine being,

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in the case of 2bit, more human than most.

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Well, it's a very sci-fi thing,

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what makes a human, what makes a machine.

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And it's both a funny and sad character at the same time.

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So that's why when we added the epilogue to Deathloop,

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we had to include him in the epilogue

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because he's such a special character.

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Alright, and you mentioned Dishonored.

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I'm a huge fan of the first game.

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And of course we could feel excitement

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about the potential announcement of a third entry.

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How do you feel about this?

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How do you feel about the anticipation

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and the excitement that there is?

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And how do you feel about the climate right now

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to perhaps introduce an immersive scene?

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Because they are not as trendy as they were 10 years ago.

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So how do you feel about the whole Dishonored 3 thing?

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Well, first of all, I think a few years ago,

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Sébastien and I said,

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we're kind of done with Dishonored.

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And I don't think people heard us, but...

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You can repeat it now.

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Well, it's the thing that we loved what we created,

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but we spent eight years.

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Eight years of our lives.

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And a studio like Arkane, we like to create new things.

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We like to challenge ourselves.

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So, yeah.

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Sébastien and I, at least,

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you know, it wasn't even in question

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that after Deathloop we would not be doing Dishonored.

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But, well, who knows?

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It might have happened in another world, another timeline.

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But this is the timeline where we are really...

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We really wanted to make something,

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you know, again, surprise and delight.

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The same way people were like,

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what is this when they saw Deathloop?

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The same way we hope they say,

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what is this when they play our new game?

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So, I think it's...

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But as for, you know, what you mentioned, which is...

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Generate self, immersive sims.

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I'd say there has never been as many immersive sims

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developed at the same time as now,

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thanks to the indie developers.

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Just today I learned with one of your colleagues

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about an immersive sim I have never heard of,

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that's called Fortune's Run.

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Looks very intriguing on the Steam page.

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But there is so many, like, Control-Alt-Ego.

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There is so many indie immersive sims right now.

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Gloomwood.

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I don't think it has ever happened in the industry

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that there is more than one or two immersive sims

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being made at the same time.

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So, I would dare to say

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that maybe this is a golden age for this genre

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because there is some big studios like us

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that are doing them.

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There is some indie studios

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that are doing them very differently, of course.

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And what I've always thought about immersive sims

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is that they are not a genre.

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They are design philosophy

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that can apply to various genres.

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If you take Dark Messiah of Might and Magic,

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it's a fighting game, action game.

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If you take Dishonored, it's more of a stealth game.

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If you take Prey, more of a horror, survival,

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psychological horror in space.

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And even beyond Arkane,

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if you take Raphael Colantonio,

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the founder of Arkane's latest game, Weird West,

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it is a top-down RPG

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with a twin-stick gameplay, in a sense.

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But they are immersive sims in the sense that

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they are using this design philosophy

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and applying it in a genre.

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And that's what's special.

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I would say that maybe it's possible

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to make a racing immersive sim.

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I have never thought about it myself,

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but maybe someone will,

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because Ultima 7 was an immersive sim.

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There was a lot of talk at the studio

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about Divinity Original Sin 2.

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Zelda, even, some might argue.

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Well, of course, it's a philosophical argument,

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but the whole thing is,

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I think this philosophy can apply to various genres.

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And right now, I don't think there has ever been

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as many games inspired by the immersive sims philosophy

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or directly derived from the immersive sims philosophy

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at the moment of time.

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So, yeah, I think it's exciting.

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And even us at Arkane,

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after Dishonored, Deathloop, Prey, etc.,

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people take us seriously

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when we say we're making an immersive sim.

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They take us seriously.

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They're not like, oh, this niche thing.

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People know that those can be successful,

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can have an appeal.

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It's not, I think,

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and that will be weird

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because of the fact that our studio is named Arkane,

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but it is not an Arkane,

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like secretive alchemy thing anymore.

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It is something that you can read some papers

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about how immersive sims are made.

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You can watch our conferences.

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You can actually come to us and ask us,

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hey, and we will, you know,

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Dana, Nightingale, myself,

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like a lot of us would be actually happy

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to talk with fellow developers

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to tell us all our secrets

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because we like this kind of games.

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We like seeing this influence in other kinds of games.

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And, you know, we are confident in what we do,

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so we are pretty happy that others are doing it.

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That's very interesting and closing one.

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We've been talking about game design,

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which is your sort of main thing

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and the whole definition of immersive sims.

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We also talked about with Harvey Smith back in the day.

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But now I want to ask you something

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that I asked him as well, which is about the studio.

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You being head of the studio for some years now

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and also the acquisition

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and how you guys feel inside the new environment

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and the whole thing.

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How is it changing the way you work, if at all?

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What can you tell me about studio thing?

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So the first thing is,

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yeah, two years that I'm studio director,

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that's super weird still for me in a way,

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but actually I had good advices.

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Because going in, it was terrifying.

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When Todd Vaughn approached me and said,

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hey, do you want to run the studio?

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I think it would be a good idea, etc.

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I was like, wait a minute.

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What does that mean?

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And he said something very interesting.

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He said,

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the game is the studio

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and the studio is the game.

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Because the studio exists to make the game

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and it's the game that determines

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the existence of the studio.

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And you organize to make this kind of game.

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So because you are the one

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spearheading the game,

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you know best

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how the studio should organize

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in order to make that same game.

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That's why we want creatives

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as studio heads

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rather than just managers.

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And I was like,

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but that makes sense.

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I can see that.

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And then of course I look at

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other studios I admire.

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You know, Todd Howard in Bethesda.

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You know, at the time,

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Shinji Mikami was head of Tango.

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Harvey in Austin.

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Raf was the head of Arkane

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when he was here.

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So actually I was like, wait a minute.

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My models are not only directors.

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They are also running a studio that doesn't...

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Hideo Kojima.

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You see what I mean?

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A lot of great creators

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that no one would say

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are not great designers,

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great artists, great creators.

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Are also running their teams.

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So when I saw all that,

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I was like, yeah, well, maybe this is possible.

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Maybe there is a way for me.

16:20.000 --> 16:21.000
And I've been working hard

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and doing some coaching

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and working with my leadership team,

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hiring some people to do the things

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that I suck badly at

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so I don't have to do something

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that I don't know how to do.

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And that's been a good experience.

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I think the studio is very...

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Again, the studio is a game.

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So we are very focused on making the game.

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We've been doing that since I'm in charge.

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It's like, how do we make

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the best environment possible

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for great things to happen between people?

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You see what I mean?

16:57.000 --> 17:01.000
And then that makes you question your processes.

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Does this process exist

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because we have never done otherwise?

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Or does it exist because

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it's the best way to do things?

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If it exists because that's the only thing we know,

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is it efficient?

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Is it what makes people happy?

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How can we find the right balance

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between the great flexibility

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that allows for genius ideas to emerge

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and at the same time be square enough

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that we deliver on quality

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and that no one has to crunch

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and people don't lose their job

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or go into burnout and shit.

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So it's an adventure.

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So as I said, I have great inspirations.

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I had this discussion with Todd Vaughn, etc.

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And also I saw a great conference from Jesse Schell

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who wrote Art of Game Design.

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So he made a conference about...

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I don't remember the name of the conference,

18:00.000 --> 18:02.000
so I will butcher it, but it's on YouTube.

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It's a conference about

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him going from being a designer

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to running a studio.

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And that conference was enlightening

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because I will spoil the entire conference

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because he made a lot of very interesting points.

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And then it ends by, well, you know what?

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You're designing your studio

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just like you're designing your game.

18:25.000 --> 18:26.000
There is a lot of overlap.

18:26.000 --> 18:28.000
There is a lot of that logic

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that still makes sense.

18:30.000 --> 18:32.000
And I was like, okay.

18:32.000 --> 18:34.000
That was a good talk.

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Very well said.

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But at the same time,

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I see the truth of this.

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Because as a game designer,

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you're making systems.

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You're watching for inefficiencies.

18:44.000 --> 18:47.000
You're trying to predict flows.

18:47.000 --> 18:48.000
And you're trying,

18:48.000 --> 18:50.000
especially as an immersive systems designer,

18:50.000 --> 18:51.000
you're trying to make things

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that should not work together

18:53.000 --> 18:57.000
actually work together.

18:57.000 --> 18:59.000
So, yeah.

18:59.000 --> 19:03.000
I do see a coherence.

19:03.000 --> 19:05.000
And again,

19:05.000 --> 19:08.000
I have great help with my team

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so that I'm not locked in an office

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doing office stuff.

19:13.000 --> 19:15.000
And I can still do the creative

19:15.000 --> 19:17.000
and, well, do what I love to do.

19:17.000 --> 19:19.000
I'm learning to love

19:19.000 --> 19:21.000
organizing a studio, etc.

19:21.000 --> 19:22.000
Leadership, sure.

19:22.000 --> 19:26.000
But I still...

19:26.000 --> 19:28.000
I'm here for making great games, man.

19:28.000 --> 19:30.000
That's why I'm here.

19:30.000 --> 19:32.000
That sounds fantastic.

19:32.000 --> 19:34.000
We're really looking forward

19:34.000 --> 19:36.000
to seeing the fruit

19:36.000 --> 19:38.000
coming out of those years

19:38.000 --> 19:39.000
and what you guys are doing now.

19:39.000 --> 19:41.000
So, thank you so much for your time.

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And all the luck with new projects.

19:43.000 --> 19:44.000
Will do.

19:44.000 --> 19:45.000
Thank you very much.